Updated: Fri May. 15 2009 22:20:03

CTV.ca News Staff

The midnight deadline for the Canadian Auto Workers' union and GM Canada to reach a labour concession deal has passed without word that a new agreement has been reached.

Shannon Devine, a spokesperson for the CAW, told CTV.ca late Friday night that the union did not expect to strike a deal but that "we're going to continue talking until we reach an agreement."

Devine had said the union committee that would vote on a potential agreement is meeting at 9 a.m. Saturday, but it appears they do not have a deal to vote on.

She said no announcement of a potential agreement could take place before the committee meets.

CAW president Ken Lewenza says his union is locked in the most difficult bargaining process ever as it struggles to reach a cost-cutting deal with GM Canada by midnight.

"This is the third time we've been in bargaining with General Motors in the last 12 months," he told CTV Newsnet on Friday.

The union has offered the Chrysler deal, which resulted in a total compensation cut of $19 per hour or about 25 per cent, but the company "continues to be overzealous," he claimed.

"They say the Chrysler deal doesn't meet their needs."

The Chrysler deal protected base wages for workers, but benefits took a hit.

Lewenza said his union is trying to reach a deal that "minimizes the pain" for its membership while earning the support of the federal and Ontario governments.

A GM Canada spokesman would only say there is "lots of hard work going on."

Prime Minister Stephen Harper said further government help is contingent on a "viable, sustainable" company emerging.

"I don't think we relish this kind of participation in a private-sector company," he told reporters Friday at a Toronto news conference held to make a public transit funding announcement.

"But as we have said, if all of the stakeholders in General Motors are prepared to do the things necessary to ensure the long-run viability of the company, we are prepared to work together in concert with the government of the United States to make sure that we preserve our share of auto production in this country."

Harper sidestepped the question of whether Ottawa would help Queen's Park cover a $7-billion pension liability if negotiations fail and GM Canada goes under.

Ontario's Premier Dalton McGuinty said in the case of Chrysler, "each (stakeholder) decided they had to give something in order to save the whole.

"And we're convinced that with goodwill and determination, we can arrive at a solution here," he said.

McGuinty repeated his government's line that the best way to protect GM pensioners is to "ensure that GM is viable going forward."

If no agreement is reached, both the federal and Ontario government will cut off financial support. In the words of CAW Union President Ken Lewenza, GM Canada will be "liquidated."

Lewenza said the union is "not even close" to a deal as of early Friday afternoon.

The pension issue

GM and the union reached an agreement in March that reduced total labour compensation costs by $7 per hour or about 10 per cent. Lewenza claimed that the union made a $500-million sacrifice in the areas of retirement and health benefits.

But the federal and provincial government said it didn't cut labour costs enough, and ordered the two sides back to the bargaining table.

The prospect of GM Canada's "liquidation" would be daunting, considering how integrated the Canadian wing is with the parent company.

The main sticking point in negotiations is pensions, both present and future.

Analyst Richard Cooper, of JD Power Associates Canada, says the unions and GM have a "tough road ahead" on the pension issue.

"The issue for General Motors is that so many of the people who are dependant on them are not active workers anymore. It's those legacy costs," Cooper told CTV's Canada AM.

On Thursday, a group of retired GM workers staged a sit-in at the office of Ontario Finance Minister Dwight Duncan, demanding more pension protection. The minister told the pensioners in Windsor on Friday that their concerns are valid.

Duncan said he plans to bring in legislation in the fall to address the issue of provincial backup for at-risk private pensions.

All this is happening amid the backdrop of Thursday's closing of GM's truck plant in Oshawa, Ont. The last pickup truck rolled off the assembly line, and the workers sent home.

The plant had been in operation since 1965, and produced 10 million vehicles.

"General Motors chose to close the most productive, high-quality plant in the world, and that's a decision we opposed," Lewenza said, noting the CAW protests of last year.

Thursday was a painful day for his members, "but for the next few hours, we've got to concentrate on what we've got left," he said.

Meanwhile, south of the border, GM told 1,100 U.S. owners that their franchise agreements will not be renewed.

In Canada, GM will reduce its dealerships to something between 395 and 425 by the end of 2010. There are currently 705 dealerships. An estimated 12,000 jobs will be affected.

This comes a day after Chrysler dropped 789 of its dealers.

With files from The Canadian Press and The Associated Press

Comments are now closed for this story

James
The unions did not cause this, but the unions will do everything they can to fix this. In the end, it is the management of GM that did not anticipate the changes that would be needed to keep GM viable.

GEE WHIZ
Are our workers finally going to require an education and specialized skills to distinguish their abilities from equally qualified workers offshore who earn one tenth of the wages here? Methinks it's fair. Globalization at its best.

Terry in Ottawa
It may have been less expensive for the governments to purchase GM rather than throw Billions down the drain in support of the concept "to big to fail". We know that this is a political view and not a business view as once one or two of the big three goes there will be business opportunities for others to step in and pick up the market share left vacant. It is unfortunate we have politicians that cannot stand up to the UAW or CAW.

Phil in Ajax
This is a sad situation for all parties, especially the retirees, now raped for their pension and nowhere to turn, except the government who permitted GM to rob the pension fund. I'm not in any way a union supporter, in fact I believe the CAW is and has been a significant part of the problem with all OEM's over the years...but...when a sacred item like a pension is allowed to be frittered away by the employer....sanctioned by the government, then I submit the government should stand up and face the consequences....Yes it's our taxpayer money...but it is the moral and right thing to do. This is not about an uneducated line worker making outrageous money, not about silly bonuses and paid vacations and all the other outrageous perks the union has won. It's all about older men and women having no money to survive in their declining years. Shame on the Government for allowing the pension rape

liz ottawa
I dont think this is anything to sneer at or laugh at, the demise of a business is always sad and GM has been an institution for as long as I have existed. I realize their worker perks have been way over the top but it is still quite sad and I am sure many families will be devastated. ever hear dont kick a man when he is down??

Autoworker's Wife (Not GM)
I feel for these families. The workers are not to blame, nor the CAW. I would really love to take a scan of a "auto workers" pay cheque so you people could see this "70.00/hour". Its bull...the public is always trying to tear people down to make them themselves feel better. Ask yourself how much do you get payed if you calculated every single minute cost that there was to your job right down to how many squares of toilet paper you use per day. If that's how much they make then why the heck am I working? Why don't you try blaming the management of these companies.

To the GM workers, my thoughts are with you and your families, we all feel your pain. To the public why don't you support the canadian ecomomy rather than Japan's.

God Bless!

rob from ontario
I think to a point the restructuring of GM is being done right. Who in the right mind gets paid that much money to do what the unionized workers do, they get paid to much. Do you need a diploma to do what they do! The cost of a new vehicle is to high. Drop your wage to a reasonable level and save your job - how much do you want it? In return; GM, drop the price of your vehicles

Chris
What's the betting that IF they do get a deal that they will want to vote this weekend?
Which just happens to be a long weekend when most of the GM workers able to vote will be away! As far as the CAW is concerned a absent vote is a yes vote.

It's all from a genarel social malaise
What caused this is a general social moral collapse where greed and selfish ambition led the way to the ruins we are only beginning to experience today.

Much worse is coming unless we collectively recognize that we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

GM, if it survives, will take many many years to rebound to its former glory, if ever.

CAW PROUD
Shame shame on the government to put such stipulations on the workers. The country will TANK if the manufacturing sector dies off. Blame the workers... they are an easy target, your neighbours, your family your community. No one complained from the companies end when Multi million dollar bonueses were handed out and CEO's and the like are cashing in their cheques. Bash the ones making 30 / hr.. not the ones making 30 000 / hr !! PROTECT THE PENSIONS of the Hard working people who built that company and our Province. Solidarity to all Brothers and Sisters !

Blue Collar
Government allowed GM to not properly fund their part of the pensions, and now both the company and the government want the workers to suffer. Blue collar workers gave blood, sweat and tears, only to lose their jobs. While the white shirts that mismanaged GM received their golden parachutes for screwing up thousands of peoples lives.

Roy
Where have all the profits gone when the economy was flying high?. six months of ressesion and ALL the big companies want bail outs from our tax dollars!! When is it our turn. The powers to be can evict people from their homes and small business can go bankrupt with no help forthcoming but the corporate thieves get all the help. TO ME THIS SMELLS OF MORE CORRUPTION IN HIGH PLACES.

Carol in NB
I still don't see any mention of shareholders'/executive's concessions. I guess that's not going to happen...greedy buggers.

kate
The retirees need to accept reality. You didn't contribute a knickel to your pension, didn't bother to say any of the money you made - and the tax payers are NOT going to help you out, too bad. There are thousands of seniors living in poverty in Ontario that really need help so I'd rather help them out by bumping up OPP. Sell your fancy homes, your cottages and your Florida condo if you need money and get used to CPP and OPP like everyone else. Many hard working people that did bother to save their own money have had losses this year, you don't hear them whining that their neighbours should now suppor them do you??

RJ in Halifax
James, you epitomize the polarization of this very serious matter. A segment of our population blames management exclusively for the problems, while another large segment blames the workers. In reality, both sides share equal blame for this mess. Management has been far too arrogant, thus blinding them from seeing where the market was going. The union shares blame by demanding a pay and benefits package that equates to about $75.00 per hour, then imposing this on all three automakers through an antiquated process of "pattern bargaining". The Big 3 have many differences in size, market share, diversification, etc and to assume that a contract that is "good" for Ford will also be "good" for GM and Chrysler is just beyond the reach of reality. It's time all parties accepted responsibility for this situation. Only then will they, collectively, be able to move forward.

CAW PROUD
The PC government has a very ANTI LABOUR ANTI UNION stance, and shame on them to be using this current Economic depression to forward that agenda !!!
SHAME SHAME... someone has to work in the factories to provide your silver spoons!

MK
somehow i think the union won't accept anymore big pay cuts. The only way i see GM Canada surviving is if the union agrees to a $15.00-$17.00 hourly wage

Pugfire
Maybe the unions did not cause this, (very debateable), (they certainly contributed their share), but it appears to me that they are not being as helpful as they could be to solve it.
Nobody wants to lose salary and benefits, but if GM goes into bankrupcy, they, the unionists, will lose both salary and pension.
I suppose then they will want the taxpayer to cover their pensions???
If they want to be really helpful, stop bickering over every cent, the standard is there (Chrysler deal), meet it and live another day! Fail and die, and then what will the union do for you?

Dale
People in this country forget who put us in this down turn.
The oil company's did this to us,Now everyone is going after the autoworker,and other people.
What about the gas prices now,the oil is selling for around $57.00 a barrel and the gas is at
$.92 cents.Use your head people who is still at the top of this problem.Not the working person.
Here now WHATS the government doing now.NOTHING.

DavidL, Port Hope
How sad. The union could have turned this into a Win-Win situation but instead chose to make it Lose-Lose.

They could have dropped all their "gains" from the past many years of confrontational demanding and requested:
1) Significant participation on the board,
2)wages + benefits + pensions more in line with the realities of economy,
3) bolstering the pension plan from the union coffers, and
4)a profit-sharing plan.

Profit sharing plans give employees a HUGE incentive to perform at maximum efficiency and boost quality.

But unfortunately they chose the same stubborn route they followed all these decades. As Dr. Phil would say, "How's that working for you?".

DJ in Quebec
Over paid workers!! Over priced vehicles!!!! No wonder they are in this situation

As a taxpayer,
we should NOT be HAPPY if GM is going down!

Reason: - If the unemployment rate keeps going up, it will take longer for all of us to RECOVER!

Besides, the money that goes out to Unemployment Insurance will be "sky high".

Either way, we, as a taxpayer are NOT winning.

Yes, I agreed that GM need to reconstruct from the Management, Marketing, Designer, present union members to retire union members. Compound with the bad economic. But BOTH Governments are also QUITY TOO! Someone should put a STOP ON THIS LONG TIME AGO!!!

Don't forget Toyota and Honda are LOSSING money in this car market money LATELY!

I truly feel sorry for the group of employees that work closely with the car industry like the part supplies, little store in the Oshawa neighbourhood etc.

Someone has to TAKE and someone has to GIVE.

We shall see the outcome in the coming days and weeks! SHOULD BE INTERESTING HOW BOTH GOVERNMENTS' ACTION WILL BE!!!!

A Matter Of Time
Unions are the biggest contributor to any failed business that employs unionized empoyees. Their presence is entirely destructive. Their usefullness disappeared as soon as workers rights became regulated. All they do now is suck the life everything.

Wendy Sunderland
I am appaled at the ignorance of some people.These are families and communities that are being directly affected.For every 1 auto workers there are 7-8 indirect labour workers.I was born in Canada and I have always tried to support my country, and buy the domestic products and services we produce or supply.If more people followed this little act our country would not be losing hundreds of thousands of jobs.
Wake up Canada we can slow down the depletion of our economies-just think before you purchase and try to buy what we build.
I wish all Canadain bussinesses the best for survival. Our children depend on us to create a future for them in our country.
Buy what we make

Frank Van Roessel
I bet most of you with the negative comments are sitting in your cushy office reading these news stories on the web and getting paid for it while GM workers like myself, read these comments about how you want to see our families destroyed when we get home from doing actual work.

Roy
GET THE ECONOMY ROLLING.
If the government of this country had half a brain between them they would cut purchase tax on ALL goods for at least 3 months so we could purchase the things that we desire and need like Automobiles, Furniture, Appliances etc etc and we would all be fully employed due to the demand for goods manufactured in Canada. Instead they give our tax dollars to prop up companies that threaten our jobs.

C.T.
I am not trying to heartless or unsympathetic but quite rankly if the N. American companies can not compete with the rest of the companies in the industry then let them die. Isn’t this he crux the dilemma anyway? Yes, these are harder times than usual but several companies in the industry are coping and it appears only N. American ones are on the verge of bankruptcy, why?

If they can no longer remain competitive they should no longer be in the game.

Gord. Robson , Nova Scotia
GM is responsible for the position they are in not the union or workers.

General Motors have not provided Canadians with the vechiles that we need and want. Too many models and too many gas guzzlers.

You can give them Billions more dollars and they will be back for more.

Goodbye G.M.

John from TO
THEY DONT MAKE 75 BUCKS AN HOUR!!!!


Get your facts straight before the union bashing (from the Jealous guys) begins

To the disrespectful
Here's to all the lame people that say all GM plant workers are uneducated. My father worked for GM and was educated. He had a certified trade and used that education at GM. We have family friends with trades that worked there also. My father had only one or two sick days in his career. He was dedicated to his job and a hard worker. I have friends/neighbours who work(ed)the line and they are very respectable people who were SMART. So bite your tongue when you cut those workers up. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. They do not earn $70/hr either. I don't care if that included other income based costs. So keeping management/union out of this picture, you must think that FORD line workers, CHRYLSER and other IMPORT car plant workers are mostly uneducated, undeserving citizens also... do you?? GIVE ME A BREAK!! Have more respect!!!

Jean-Francois Halifax
My heart goes to all canadian GM autoworker's families. I just hope that a HUGE lesson has been learned here. There's a need for oversight in any company.

CEJ-Ontario
To CAW PROUD PC's are anti- labour

You conveniently left out your Liberal friends who are in charge in Ontario. Don't forget it is McGuinty and his team that are also refusing to cover the pension benefits. I really enjoy the "Union" folk who, through years of Rah Rah Union brainwashing, can not see they played a part in the downfall of these companies.
I recall reading a stat that shows there are about 3.5 retirees to 1 worker at GM.
Declining sales, declining profit, increasing costs equals bankruptcy. The sooner all the union drones realise that there is no such thing as job security, and negotiate a real contract that pays a more realistic wage and benefit package, the better of GM might have been. Unfortunately it is too late. The corporate and union greed has snuffed out a once giant in the industry.

Jon in London ON
Let's be really clear on this issue.

The Government in power that allowed GM not to fund their pension was the Bob Rae NDP.

The government that is poised to bail out GM is Conservative.

When it's reported that the U/CAW owns 50% of Chrysler & GM stock, it the Union Management not the rank and file (the worker) that own it.

The union has no interest in the workers well being. Since the unions have become political parties, only interested in their preservation. As a union member on the shop floor, you just get to pay for it through your union dues.

Allan
Management has to wear this failure. They earned the big bucks because they were supposed to be clever and insightful and on top of things. But they weren't.

For decades these executives ordered cars built that didn't fit a long term vision. America had gas shortages in the 1970s and these guys went on to build SUVs and Hummers. They had a "today vision" not a future vision.

And if union wages got too high, well, whose fault is that? These executives should have negotiated harder. Back in 1983 a Chrysler VP told me their health care costs in the US added $700 to the cost per vehicle. Three years ago when GM moved 3500 jobs to Canada, those costs were $1500 per vehicle.

The executives took the money, bathed in the perks and screwed up royally. The shareholders should sue.

steve
It's odd to read all these blogs of people who seem to be taunting workers who just lost there jobs and maybe even there pension. My guess is the people doing the taunting are those who probably went to university for 4 years to obtain a major in philosophy or english just to work at subway for 10 buck an hour.(Hopes everything ends well for GM workers and there family)

Give Me a Freaking Break!
The unions are not the cause of this? Maybe the responsibility does not land squarely on their shoulders but you better believe that they contribute the lion’s share of the problem. Management is not without guilt as well. They are guilty of approving these absolutely ridiculous collective bargaining agreements. Plain and simple, the autoworkers make too much money for what their job entails. They are unskilled labour making the wage of doctors, lawyers and professionally designated people. It’s honest work no doubt, but come on! $100 grand annual wage for some!!!! Give me a freaking break!!!!

To management and unions: What did you think would happen!!

HM
Lets not forget the effect GM & Chrysler's fall is going to have on your average mechanic shop... With the crap these two companies put on the road gone and most likely replaced with imports the auto mechanic is about to have a lot of spare time!

What a horrible waste of our tax dollars trying to prop up these companies!!! They have failed, let them fail and stop wasting our (tax payers) money!!!

kodiak
There is alot thing floating out there that people do not know.
1) Toyota and Honda workers in Canada make more money that Detroit 3 workers to keep the unions out.
The only diffeence right now is GM has been here over a 100 years and has retires of I beleive 25000. The Toyota and Honda workers will be in the same spot in 10 , 20 years.
I just hope you are not thretened with your retiement when the time comes.

JB in Ontario
Slimmer, trimmer Management. Further cuts in wages and benefits by the CAW and no bonuses for three years for Management. They should lead by example and take a pay cut across the board.

At least this way GM can buy some time and figure out how to remain in the market and out of the red.

We need to do whatever it takes to make GM a viable company to maintain jobs and create more. GM has too strong a history to be abandoned.

Linda Mallett
I am amazed at the vicious remarks of people about the GM retirees! Do people not realize that yes they made good money but also you have to remember it is these people who SPEND that money so other people get to work. From buying their toys(someone has to make these toys) to buying clothing(someone makes these) right down to buying a coffee! Alot of people think it is uneducated people who work there! Wrong, there are many, many university graduates, people who gave up what could of been physically easier on their bodies to work hard and provide good lives for their families. You can not get hired into GM without a grade 12 education. There a very few GM workers that don't have injuries that will affect them for the rest of their lives. From back to shoulder and arm and hand injuries that will stay with them till the day they die. The jobs might look easy when you do ONE job but do it 600 times a day every minute and it's a different story.THAT is why they make the good money! It is sad that people shoot the people who are down and laugh, it WILL affect everyone sooner or later. Who will buy all their toys?Their homes etc? Just take a look over the border and see how well they did over there! Come on people, leave the workers alone, they didn't do this, they didn't cause this, they voted believing the government is a good one. Watch out, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You may be next and who will come to your aid! Yes the autoworkers got lots of things but other businesses copied them and their ways so once GM is gone who says you're not next!

Gord Muirhead - sault ste. marie
It's a shame to see anyone lose their jobs but the CAW hasn't exactly help with the situation. Maybe after this is all over and GM and Chrysler are a thing of the past , the employees at Ford will get rid of the CAW and become a better work force. The blame must also go to the execs. of the auto companies, they are as greedy as the unions.

Jim Macdonald
Many seem to forget that in addirtion to his HIGH salary for running the company into the ground, rick waggoner departed with a $23 million severance, and when and if the company folds or is sold off piecemael that the rest of the top management will also get GOLDEN hanshakes. Who did the work all these years?!

Tony Oshawa
I bet if GM told the workers from the truck plant..here's the deal. We will keep the truck plant open..it pays $12.00 an hour and no CAW.
Do you want us to close it or are you willing to work for $12 bucks an hour ?
The CAW has done this for years to GM and the rest.
Give us this perk..give us that..we want higher wages..if NOT ..WE STRIKE ! It's a trend...
GM needs to say ..NO ..you strike ..we CLOSE.
It's not the CAW or UAW to position to tell a company how much they can make. No one should have the right to tell a company what to do with their profits. Such as no one tells a worker what to do with their wages.
We don't live in Cuba !!!
And that is what the UNIONS have become ..DICTATOR'S !
GM is in a controling relationship ..they need to severe the ties and move on.

RIP

Calvin Yeo
Okay...I give up. I'll take the wage cut to $15/hr. And I'm sure the feeder plant employees will take a 50% cut as well. Let's scrap my pension while we're at it. I can collect welfare from the government, and be a drain on society instead of contributing huge tax dollars.
Or...let's just close the plants. Then my body can rest from the 57 minute/hour for 8 hours a day that I work. I can quit chasing the assembly line and chase my grandchildren instead. And the new job I get, leaning on a shovel, won't be so hard on me.
And, when there is no money to go around, the farmers will cry poorer and want more subsidies, the banks will have to seize homes for non-payment of mortgages and North America comes to a standstill.
This all started with people buying on credit, the loans and mortgage people screwing up by allowing credit to skyrocket and no one saving a dime. How many people have more than $5,000 in savings? Not many, I'll wager.
Take a look at yourselves before you criticize others. You work where you do for your reasons. I work in the auto industry for mine. We made our life choice, now we have to live with it.

CAW PROUD
Just to make one point talked about CRYSTAL CLEAR. The autoworkers wages represents 7% of the total cost of a vehicle. SEVEN PERCENT... now the auto sector could work for free and not even touch the debt accumulated from years of poor managing and lack of foresight for vehicle needs ( ie electric / smaller ). workers work.... owners own.. managers manage... so really who is to blame ? atleast OBAMA had it right when he said Chrysler's CEO's had to share in the wage cuts... and they didn't !!! whats that tell ya !!!

Roy
BUILD OUR OWN.
Why don't we tell the BIG three that we will not bail them out and that we will use the BILLIONS of dollars they want to fleece from out of our coffers, let's build our own cars andd trucks just like the Germans did with the VW and the Japanese did with the Toyota, they are true success companies. Let's stop relying on foreign vehicles and put the billions into THE CANADIAN CAR and tell the unions to take a hike so we can sell at competitive prices.

Al
For the "Auto Workers Wife", I don't think anyone is saying that the workers are taking home $70.00 an hour on their paychecks, but when you factor in the costs of benefits like medical, pensions, etc., that the company pays out for its employees, it works out to approximately $70.00 per hour. Not too many people out there below management can say they have those luxuries. Most of us have those benefits deducted from our paychecks. You can bend, fudge, or outright lie about the figures but government and GM/Chrysler is only asking that you pay for your benefits like everyone else.

Suprised at Stupidity
To Kate: Allow me to correct your misconception. GM workers do pay in to their pension through payroll deductions and the longer they work and pay into it the more then can expect to get when they retire. It's the same concept as paying into CPP (Canada Pension Plan).

Chris in Ajax
Well I sure do hope that they do not come to an agreement today. I am a union man myself and fully support the concepts and principles of a union but our government has no backbone so will keep throwing our childrens money at these failed companies. It only cost how many billions of dollars to buy a 2% stake in Chrysler days before it declared bankruptcy. Dalton and Steve should be brought before the courts for stealing our money for their own agenda. Most people do not realize the costs associated with this spending spree during a recession. We are mortgaging our childrens future for no appreciable short or long term gains. 40 billion dollars can very easily turn into 100 billion dollars with just a slight rise in interest rates (we are currently at historic lows but runaway inflation is a result of keeping interest rates too low for too long). I do not know how anyone who supports this boondoggle can look their children in the face. Shame shame shame.

union misrepresentation
Let's get a little reality on the situation here.....the truck plant that closed yesterday was announced to everyone quite some time ago. This was not a suprise. Union leaders yesterday made it sound like the boss just came in and shut the plant down ??
If that plant made the "very best trucks in the world" as the memers claim, then why did they shut it down ? Preople are still buying trucks...and to the union members on CTV last night that say the gov't(us) should look after your pension, then you are nuts. It was a fellow socialist, Bobby Rae that ok'd the pension deal with GM and it's union. I did not see the union complain about it at the time. I guess Buzz and Bobby White never thought that people would stop buying your crappy cars. So why isn't the Union protesting at Bobby Rae's office ???? Dwight Duncan can do nothing for you, but I guess the brothers and sisters need someone to blame for their greed and self sense of entitelment over the years. Kenny Lewenza is using the same old scare tatics that went the way of the Do-Do bird..GM will not liquiddate it's assests in Canada Ken and you kow it, so stop panicking your members.

John Deremo
I have read many comments about the GM pension shortfalls; I am a retiree from GM. As a Taxpayer, I fully agree that we should not have to pay for the pensions, they have already been paid for once. Our government assured GM (& other companies) that there was no need to top up the fund as we were "too big to fail" and there was INSURANCE to cover shortfalls. The NDP made this wise decision in 1990's, the Liberals and Conservatives have both had the opportunity to correct this but left it on the backburner, If we cannot trust our governments or the companies that employ us when they say there is a pension when we retire, then we are ALL in a precarious state of uncertainty. I strongly advise all taxpayers to research their pension and insist that the government remove any clauses that allow companies to short their pension payment OBLIGATIONS. The politicians are making these BAD decisions with the knowledge that their pensions are indeed fully funded by the TAXPAYERS!

Gord
Buzz’s Momma didn’t raise no fool.

Ontario Premier Mc Guinty is correct in protecting the interests of the average Ontario taxpayer in insisting the GM Canada underfunded pension shortfall be dealt with internally in any GM restructuring before any more government funding is agreed to.

Buzz and the Big 3 management knew for years that the companies could not agree to these generous wages, benefits and pensions and meet other expenses and survive. Overhead was too much, Thus, the CAW leadership let this non contributory underfunding slide under the radar mainly because the average CAW member only understands how much jingle does he have in his jeans NOW and Buzz got to crow to his membership. The last thing Buzz wanted was defeat as CAW Boss by a p**ed off membership and have to go back to the assembly line at Chrysler Windsor. GM leadership just signed anything it seems because their bonuses and promotion was based on production. They were both in cahoots. Together they just kept kicking the pension issue down the road for future CEO’s and CAW bosses to deal with. Hello Kenny Boy. How’s your inheritance from Brother Buzz doin’.

Tom Hanna
And the UAW members thought the big boys were bluffing. Somebody had to be the one to be made an example of.

Ed, Toronto
Where is the problem here? If GM and Chrysler go under, people won't stop driving. The same total number of cars will still be sold. It's just that many more of them will be Hondas and Toyotas. Much better cars, built in Ontario, by less greedy workers and more competent management. Parts suppliers that lose their Detroit business will sell to the Japanese companies instead. Good workers from the closed plants (probably taken over by Honda and Toyota) will get jobs; incompetents protected by the union will lose theirs.

Where's the downside?

The only problem is with retirees. Of course, they and their union knew for nearly 20 years that GM wasn't paying into the pension but did nothing. The gov't shouldn't have let it happen but the union shouldn't have either. If someone doesn't pay you the money they owe you and you say and do nothing for 20 years, you've pretty much given up your claim. As for those who've been collecting their pension for many years, well, they knocked off a decade ahead of everyone else and have been collecting royally all this time. If they squandered it all, they get no sympathy from me - or most other Canadians who looked after themselves responsibly.

John Deremo Oshawa
If GM workers made $70/hr an all these years then I'm very sure that we would not be complaining about the pension issues as we would have been making $150,000/yr a year and banked our pension contributions - we made just over $30/hr which is just over $62,000/yr and our pensions were supposed to be put away for us - the government officials that allowed the rules to be changed (NDP) did so knowing that their pensions were indeed fully funded and paid for by the TAXPAYERS like me!!

Paul from Grafton
Is this really Canada? We're looking at a large group of people who've worked all their lives with the understanding that a pension was part of the reason they stood on the lines, at least 5 days a week, frequently 6 and sometimes even 7 days a week, unable to go to the bathroom or even get a drink when their body says they have to. And now, with the wheels falling off the pension wagon, the population is cheering. This is shades of Rome when the undesirables were tossed to the lions and people cheered. I cannot believe that is happening here in this country. I think we're watching the moral collapse of the west. Free trade is the new lion devouring the middle class and the rest of you cheer it on... For those who wish the worst for the autoworkers, remember: What goes around comes around and may the evil you wish upon us also visit your home!

Durham Resident
Let's be realistic. Both parties are too blame. As they say, it takes two to tango. The GM management has been terrible for decades. They are literally competing against themselves in the market. Can anyone tell the difference between a Pontiac G5 and a Chevy Cobalt other than the branding? With dozens of models, how can you manage quality? Look at the foreign automakers. They brand it once and keep it streamlined.

The union is equally to blame. They continued to hose the company and I don't care what anyone says, the workers are overpayed. I know that the work can be hard, but so is working in a chemical plant making a lot less. And to the retirees, I fully support a guarantee on pension funds that YOU contributed to. However, don't cry about pension money that you didn't contribute. It's not technically yours.

B. Kelley, Ontario
To: CAW Proud. You say that "The PC government has a very ANTI LABOUR ANTI UNION stance". And so it should! Over the past several decades unions have used their powers of legal extortion (threat of strikes) to minimize worker productivity, maximize operating costs, protect undesirable employees and generally create an attitude of entitlement that bears no relationship to their true value. The union credo of discouraging performance while accepting no responsibility or accountability for the consequences of their actions has created their current dilemma. CAW members, including retirees, enjoyed the fruits of organized extortion for many years but now they want the taxpayers to save them from the consequences of their greed. The chickens have indeed come home to roost. Don't expect any sympathy from the government or the taxpayer/consumer who has been paying the true price for your featherbedding all along. Welcome back to planet Earth.

michael morgan Providence Bay Ontario
Both governments are setting up the CAW and the GM workers to take the blame for not reaching a final agreement. That is a no brainer. Harper and Clement will have the money to pay for Toronto's new streetcars,and Toyota will rule the roads.
I'm voting Green from now on.

A retired G.M. Millwright.

GUTSHOT!! in Thunder Bay
C'mon CTV!

Why even run a comments section under this story??

Its so obvious that your average Canadian commenting here is not very intelligent in matters pertaining to, or the importance of GM in the auto industry. They have zero understanding and have demonstrated they are incapable of learning the real truths surrounding this industry, even though CTV has posted some stories to support the truth. Albeit very little.

C'mon CTV show the autoworkers some decency and respect and close the comments section under this article. That's just plain bottom feeding for website hits. Just barely a rung above the supermarket tabloids!

Its also time for the uneducated GM bashers here to put down their pitchforks and torches, and educate themselves on the seriousness and far reaching ramifications of this matter.

Drop the $75/hr rhetoric. Drop the gas guzzler idiocy..Drop the cars nobody wants bit. Drop the cheap plastic garble.(all cars have plastic interiors, get over it) etc..

If the autoworkers have no support from their own fellow man or government, then their fellow man or government will get no support from the autoworkers.

I cant wait til you whiners are crying about the problems that come next. Who you gonna cry to when this whole country is foreign owned and youre a slave to them?

steve burrows
It has been comming for years,anyone with a smigion of sence could see that the bubble would have to burst.Less than high school education;making 30/50 dollars per Hr.with paid personel days,the sub program that bumps EI to near full wages in case of layoff,ETC.Driving the cost of a new car beyound the average Canadian.
At one time unions were needed to protect workers from sinister owners,but no longer, now we need help to protect the average Canadian from greedy and too powerful unions who have no concept of the times at hand.

Urgh
Why cut the costs of the middle class labourers... what about cutting the costs of the big guys and CEO's. Have any of them taken a pay cut?

James
It is about time that we realize that these unions were overpaid and cost the Canadian consumers in their purchasing power. Let's worry about all Canadians not a specific sector such as the autworkers!!!We all require help why single out the autoworkers.

nc
Zen saying
"to every end a new beginning"

Al
When I tried to get GM to back their products they refused. Don't blame the workers, the management is overpaid and terrible at customer service, and they don't care about the customer. I was a GM man for 25 years, now no way!!

Cathy
As much as I think there has been a big waste in this company...wages, UNIONS etc...I do feel bad for the average workers there who are now in the same boat as me...now our gears have changed and trying to find a job is not all that easy...losing a job ain't something that is celebrated...no matter what it is.

I have seen it time and time again...big bosses stepping in when it is too late. It is nice that GM is "trying" to do something now, but the damage to Canada and Canadians is done. Congratulations Mexico.

N in Cambridge
Your right, Toyota and Honday don't have the pensioners like the big 3 do, but I don't think they will be in the same boat in 20 years, they run there companys alot better then the North American ones do, Yes Toyota and Honda pay well but they don't give out the perks that the Big 3 do, and the Fact of the matter is the Union protects the lazy workers, if you don't do your Job at Toyota and Honda they will let you go because they know that theres 3000 other people waiting for that job, I heard on the news yesterday that on average toyota and Honda Dealers sell 1300 cars a month per dealer and the Big 3 only 300, that tells me the these 2 are in touch with what people want, which is Quality and good on Gas, and we all know that they auto makers don't make 75 an hour, but with all the perks it adds up and then is passed on to us thru junk cars.

Ray in Brockville
Well they didn't pay into their pensions, made big money and didn't save as many of us did for that rainy day. That rainy day is here ,,,,tooooo bad. The taxpayer is not going to bail you out folks. Union and management missmanaged and milked Bessie dry.
I understand that most of the workers will still be paid for a year anyway. What a perk that many workers do not have.

Adios

All 3 sides are ALL QUILTY
For the Government, they should NOT just let the Honda and Toytoa from Japan to MOVE IN. Build their product, take away the car market and NOT ALLOW our Canadian car maufactur to IMPORT our cars to their country. It's like opening the door and let people take the food out from our fridge. It's wrong!

For the CEO, Marketing, Desiger, Union LEADERS for FAILING your job but still get pay for bonus. You guys are misleading all the union members! All of you were putting your head in the sand for decades.

You guys are NOT protecting the union members. You guys are ONLY interested in the pay and keep your jobs! Like someone hire a Lawyer to fight for them. Win or loss, that lawyer STILL GET PAY!

Also I do understand that GM employee ARE NOT PAYING $75/HOUR. THAT IS INCLUDED THEIR BENEFIT. THEIR HOURLY RATE IS ABOUT $30 - $40/HOUR.

But just every workers across the country, you guys should put away some income into your savings, R.R.S.P. etc. for retirement. Instead of going out to restaurant, Wal Mart, McDonald, Tim Horton etc. Can cry over it if you don't understand the words - SAVING, SPENDING, WANTING & NEEDING!

For the rest of the canandian citizen, aren't you suppose to support product that are MADE IN CANADA? If you are interested in buying German or Japanese car, who will be buying the canadian cars? (Don't forget they are NOT allow to export it overseas according to our Government???!!!)

It is such a MASS! Even Obama can't fix it. Because it has been going on for over 20 years! We shall find out by the end of TODAY!

Jack
James is right. Management gave in to the unions again and again and again. Now, burdened to their knees with absurd wages and benefit packages for essentially unskilled labour, the American auto manufacturers are going exactly where they deserve. That's what will always happen when you let the tail wag the dog. Good riddance.

Rudolf from the NWT
I do not agree that this isn't a UAW/CAW caused problem. They are not victims here. They had a representative at the management meetings and had first hand knowledge of the trends, predictions and forecasts. Still they bargained more concessions from management at the last contract negotiations. They ate the goose that was laying the golden eggs for years. Another scary point has been raised and if the union was able to obtain financial concessions from an inept management team, then there must have been some profits from the years past. Where did those profits go? Lining executive pay packages and paying for 100% employer paid pensions to start. How stupid can they all be? Mama always said save up for a rainy day but it looks like that message was lost on management and the unions collectively. You reap what you sew so don't come crying to the taxpayer to bail you out. Your benefits were to lucrative and depended on annual profits to fund them. Once you lose the profit you've lost the benefit. Santa Claus left town last July when even he stated to see that things were coming apart. He sold the reindeer as pet food and leased the elves as nannies to politicians in Ottawa. He knew the times they were a changing and change they did.

John
Cut the upper managements and union bosses wages, not just the employees all the time. The management should have run the company properly and should always look to the future. Let the employees buy the company, they will probably run it better.

Clem
To GUTSHOT in Thunder Bay.

In your own words: "Why even run a comment section under this story".
Why did you send in a comment?
I'm one of those not very intelligent Canadian you refer to.
It must be nice to be the only one that knows what he's talking about.

Darren in Oshawa
If anyone is to blame, its management of the union, management of GM and the Goverment.

Union Management - should have created a cooperative not combative attitude amongst the employees. They should have looked at their competition and set their sites on the company's sucess, not their own

Company Management - have known for 30 years they have been loosing market share. None wanted to make the tuff decisions and the fat got fatter until utter failure. They should never have asked to borrow money from the pension

Government - should never have allowed money to be taken from the pension

Workers - its been shown over and over again that the workers will work their butts off for a good boss and a good company that they beleive in. The perception of greedy, uneducated employees to me stems from a union that was stronger than it should have been. They protected the slackers and that gave a bad reputation to all because thats all you hear about. The unions set the workers against the company and that was downfall. Both the company and union management should have recongnized this and fixed it as it is clear that a major factor in the downward spiral.

GM had the potential and still has, to be the best in the world. GM's CDN plants had the best quality world wide. What a shame that short term thinking by all has led to this massive pain.

Bob from Bolton
Does anyone remeber about a week ago CTV had a clip comparing GM workers and Honda workers?
Anyways I was perplexed to see that the GM workers were pretty much over weight and moving like Malasses in the middle of January...so to speak,(looking pretty complacent) where as the Honda workers seem fit and eager, while also enjoying their work.
Maybe its just the Media or could it be that Honda
Management GETS IT!!!

D.K.
We are blamming the unions, lazy workers etc.
There is enough blame to go around and all are at fault and none want to fix this including management. Sure it is sad that GM closed the truck plant in Oshawa buit Buckley should realize this was not a surprise we have all known this for years. GM did NOT stop making trucks they are now making them in Mexico where the labour cost are much lower. GM certainly wants the restructuring and no amount of infighting will change that.Canada will lose most of the auto industry jobs as will the Americans. At this rate the only vehicles assembled in Canada will be Japanese or Korean.

Joe Joe
Why should taxpayers pay out pension money for former workers and then their widows when they die when the company disappears? How many Canadians are without pensions as a result of a company disappearing? This company is NOT solvent and should therefore dissolve into history and the union along with it.

Candu
Thank-you 'gunshot' from Thunder-Bay. Its sad to see all the "happy" comments about these people losing thier jobs and/or pensions, just because they don't have the same. These jobs were not easy, I did it for 3 summers as a student and although the money was good, I chose to take a different path. Bottom line, these people are not "greedy", "lazy" or "monkey's". They are mothers, fathers, uncles, aunts, sons and daughters. What happened to Canadian compasion in times of need? There were many mistakes made over the years, lets feel for the people that have to suffer for them.

joer
The Canadian Government must take the side with the workers and the Union, Ho also can protect Workers and there family .
Capitalism create this Catastrophe . Let them fix! no Worker tax money.
How about Rick Wagner $ millions for is job well done?
he create the Catastrophe.
How about Free trade.
or globalization trade.
that was create to make reach reacher.

m hance
The idea that all autoworkers are uneducated and unskilled is a fallicy. Myself and he majority of my co-workers have post-secondary experience. We simply chose not to become part of the white-collar world. Some others are better suited for manual labour. Does this mean they don't have a right to a good living in return for honest labour? Our contributions to the facillitation of award-winning assemby processes is vital. Education shoud not be the only factor in wage levels. Sacrificing one's body, sweat and blod should be worth as much, if not more, than the educations of those who created this current financial situation. A suggestion for those business owners who wish us ill: Put a sign in the window of your establishments warning that any union-gained wages and pensions are not welcome We will be happy to take our business elsewhere.

Pro Labour
As a unionist I would like to point out one thing. You can bash unions all you want, you can say they are outdated, they were useful at the beginning of the 20th century ..blah blah blah. Why do I need a union, I have great benefits, a pension plan, and a good vacation. But lest ye forget, that most companies offered those perks to their employees because they had to compete with unionized workers. So unions really laid the ground and benefits for all North American workers whether you agree or not. Maybe GM will say the hell with it and move their entire operation to Mexico, where they make workers wear diapers so they don't have to give them a bathroom break!

Paul from Grafton
To Tony in Oshawa...

You think if we agreed to $12/hr GM would keep the plant open? Um... no. They already built the replacement plant in Mexico for Oshawa truck. It opened a few months before the announced closure of Oshawa Truck. The GM workers in Mexico earn between $2.50 & $4.50/hr. with no or next to no benefits. Minimum wage in Canada is too high to suit multi-national companies, so unless you're advocating lowering the minimum wage, and are willing to work yourself for around $5/hr - OR LESS - I'd suggest you rethink the problem. This is all about Globally focused companies buying gov'ts and using free trade as a tool to lower middle class living standards in Canada, the U.S., and Europe. No matter what you do for a living Tony, your day is coming too. And tax rates will rise drastically on us all as Gov't accumulated debt has been incurred during the high wage years and will have to be repaid in the years of a lower wage structure. Free Trade must end if our children & Grandchildren are to have any sort of decent life in Canada. No party wants to touch that issue tho as the real money behind ALL political parties ultimately comes from the same source. Remember, he who has the gold makes the rules, and politicians will dance to their tune or not be funded.

vinny
someone wanted to know the profits went in the good days. They went to building plants in mexico, china russia etc. its not so much the $35/hour here but the fact that safety, and pollution controls are not there.Their taxes are nowhere near ours which also shows why they dont have billions to fund education and heath care. If you want the great services Canada has, we need thede manufacturing jobs to fund them

Earl
The only solution is for GM to go bankrupt get rid of the blood sucking CAW and then start up clean and more competive. If GM is going into bankruptcy why are they now trying to make a deal with the CAW ? By the way all those boots we see the CAW piling up at politicians doors and hanging over fences were bought and paid for by GM. I think they are going to need GM'S boots when they join the real world and get a real job.

JB in Calgary
This is one of those situations I would like to see a "Bill Gates" step in and buy the company. Somebody who believes in everything this auto industry never provides. Like fuel economy, new big ideas, caring for the environment.

A person who actually listened when we asked for a quality car that matches or surpasses the Japanese. I'm just sitting here shaking my head wondering how a company as large as GM could screw it up so badly.

GM was so busy trying to please everybody in their tastes of vehicles and perhaps we're to blame while trying to "keep up with the Jones'". There is no reason we need the number of makes that we have. Pontiac, Chev, Olds, Hummer, GMC, etc. Why not just make one car, one truck and one van that is really good.

Oh but then their parts buddies wouldn't have jobs or their service buddies. We need one "RICH" person to step up who doesn't need to take a profit to take this company over. Then maybe we would get some good cars and trucks again.

The funny thing is I wonder if we ever had quality before? Or was it that GM, Ford, and Dodge, was all we ever knew? Then the German and Japanese vehicles started coming. The Dying three bounced around thinking that "we the buyers" switched brands because we liked a certain brand or style. Mean while we were bouncing from model to model looking for better quality - otherwise Japan wouldn't have won this war.

GM's big sell for 2015 - "The 2015 GM xxxx - NOW WITH 16 CUP HOLDERS - all of which now heat and cool"

The $70 per hour includes benefits for retirees,Al
And, yes, there are many misinformed fools claiming that GM workers are taking home seventy dollars per hour as their pay.

Many fools should turn off their redneck radio stations and get better informed.

Dave from Okotoks
Pension Protection???? Give me a break. The Big Three and the Unions are going to have a extremely difficult time convincing consumers to buy their new products. I for one WILl NOT.

kodiak
Here is another fact for you.
The average autoworker collects 2 retirement checks. Yes some live to a ripe old age but alot do not make it that far either.
We have earned retirement and from repetitive work I hear people who take a hour to shave because they can not lift their arms past their shoulders and in so much pain. It sounds easy and it is when your 20 , 30 but when you start wearing out and can not even do the simple things anymore .. is the money worth it or is it enough?
Do not talk about someone else unless you walked a mile in their shoes.
Let me tell you we are not lazy and work for what we get.

A point to ponder:
The auto sector is ONLY a minor part of the overall economy. Face it; you're just NOT THAT IMPORTANT!

Lisa A
You people on here that are negative and all over the GM works and the union's. Make me sick, to my stomach. I am in disgust my some of the remarks on here. Maybe people should sit back and realize just how much GM has done for our economy and for all your jobs, with out you even knowing. They have made donations well beyond any expectation!! Can your company can say that, or you as an individual. So many GM employee's have donated so much of what they have earned to HELP people in NEED, and when it's there time. People can tear them apart. You should all be ashamed of these harsh comments. And to all those people out there who are so concerned about how much money GM employee's are making. Maybe you should spent a day in the plant. Remember this, what goes around comes around. So watch your jobs!! GM provides more then you know. I am so sorry for all the family's that have to deal with such heartache and uncertainty at this time!! The best to you all and to my self as well!!

K_W
I do not blame the workers, the union and CEO's promised them things that they knew they couldn't keep.

They need to take a pay cut, i would rather take a pay cut then go on EI w/no job.
I've taken a paycut this year so i could keep my job at our factory i think this is what need to be done.

People can bash the governemnt all they want but it comes down to why use taxpayer money to a company we've done this before and still haven't seen the money returned, i say put taxpayer money into companies or even health care people complain so much how our health care is crapping out then lets put money towards that so we can keep hospitals open, get more doctors out there ect..
Also i know pensioners are having hard times but we all are, the government can not afford to pay for them it's not possible where again will they get that money?

If the government bails both GM and Chrysler + pay pensions for these companies we will be in such a deficit canada will not recovery for years... So CAW take the paycuts,reduce the pay to 16 bucks an hour hey i live off of that, be smart with the health benefits find way to cut that but without hurting what the employees need. Employees learn from the world invest into rrsps,open up that new "savings"acct and start saving basically live well and save cause this will happen again Learn the first time correct the issue and everything will be AOK.

James T.
This is an important lesson for those greedy and foolish enough to throw in with the unions. And I trust they shall profit by it.

Autoworker GM
Let's get to the bottom line here, yesterday was a very sad day for our CAW members when the truck plant closed, many of our workers now without a job, it would be great if some people who likes to judge us, stops digging at us, we did nothing wrong, our management did. It very well may surprise you that we do have a education, we do pay taxes even though some think not, where does the almost $400 per week go out of our pay, maybe it's helping GM survive...haha!! Seriously some need to grow up, get a life, we the non-educated will survive regardless what happens between GM/CAW.

Shay
Where is employer accountability to it's employees. Just because the CAW has been poorly managed, why should these workers have to suffer? GM workers may have had good benefits/bonuses, but it was a condition of their employment that they are entitled to. How could the average worker know that the CAW would not honor their committment? Quit the inappropriate bashing of these workers, they already have enough to deal with without having to hear crap about being uneducated (which they are not), how they should have saved their money...blah blah blah. Shut GM down and watch Unemployment Costs rise, guess who'll be paying!!

Jean
DO NOT BE DECEIVED: Canadian autoworkers do not “earn” $70 or more per hour.
The higher cost estimate circulated in some public debates reflects a very different concept from wages or compensation. This concept is known as “all-in
labour cost per hour.” It is a statistical measure, relatively unique to the auto industry, which captures the effect of all labour-related expenses (even non compensation costs such as payroll taxes paid directly to government, and the costs associated with downtime and layoffs), calculated relative to the number of
hours actually worked in the course of a year.

Until now, Toyota and Honda plants have not experienced layoffs, thanks to more favourable market trends (that are hardly within the power of individual workers). This translates into a two-fold benefit to Honda and Toyota: higher hours per worker per year (and hence lower costs per hour for benefits and other fixed items). Now that Toyota and Honda plants are also experiencing downtime, this may start to change, and their all in-hour labour costs with be higher too.
Almost a century ago, Henry Ford paid his workers a then unheard of $5 per day so they could buy the products they were making, and the auto industry led the way in creating an American and Canadian middle class.

Instead of putting the North American Auto-makers and Auto-workers down, don't forget these plants and their workers were there during World War II. GM turned its facilities to the production of war materials. YES, NORTH AMERICAN AUTO-MAKERS......not the Asian Auto-makers. Remember that the next time you buy a vehicle!!! Do some research on the 9/11 crisis and you will find out who gave monetary support. NOT the foreign auto-makers who dump their products and plants into North America!!!

Charles Barkley
If you nay sayers are so sure of yourselves, why dont you walk around Oshawa voicing your omnipotenet opinion? Oh, thats right you're too much of a spinless coward. If the money doesn't go to an economy stimulant like GM with tax paying jobs than it will go into the giant slush fund for MP's to take their families on champagne and caviar trips around the world. GM line work is hard labour, obviously none of you have ever earned a paycheque.

James T.
"You are all condemned men. We keep you alive to serve this ship. So row well and live." Quintus Arrius

I guess some of you union lot should have rowed a little harder...

Vito in Montreal
In times of prosperity the unions asked for more and more. Good for them. Was it the reason for the current situation? I do not think it was the sole contributing factor. Do i feel bad for all those losing their jobs and or potential pensions yes I do. Do I feel a responsibility as a taxpayer to protect their pensions and/or jobs no i do not. All profited when times were good but now that times are bad none want to give up what they have. I am sorry but this to me is not representative of reality.

I wish all auto workers good luck and courage facing this terrible ordeal.

Adam in Ottawa
Three things caused the auto industry to be where it is now:

1) Management greed
2) Union/Worker greed
3) Poorly designed and manufactured product.

I love how the union blames the government for allowing Imports to be sold here. Competition is the great leveller. Detroit has had 30 years to improve their product as compared to the Japanese, and while they've gotten somewhat better they're still not even in the ballpark in terms of quality. And it is my personal experience that GM is incapable of building a decent reliable vehicle. If you keep screwing people over with poor quality vehicles and lousy service, they will eventually look elsewhere.
That having been said, Bob Rae and the NDP allowed GM to scrimp on the pension fund contributions. Pensioners should get their money that they worked for!

edd-medhat
It's not like the pension shortfall hasn't been known about by the corporations, unions, union members and general public since the early 90's. However, the unions in their greed put all their emphasis on negotiating for spa days, tuition for their childrens college education, extra vacation days, not to mention exhorbitent salaries, lawyer fees for personal problems, etc. Had they concentrated on the pension shortfall problem, they wouldn't be having this discussion today.

It is impossible to convince the 75% of Canadians that have no corporate pension to give up their taxes so that a few who blew their chances can have it all back.

I think that both the Fed and the Prov governments have been given the message from the taxpayers that we don't want our money wasted on union perks.

Douglas Brown (Newmarket, ON)
Stop blaming the government for the demise of a mis-managed company that did not have the foresight to build quality products that people actually want to buy. Of course I feel sorry for the workers and the job loss, but I am SICK of hearing the blame put on the government that gives out my money to companies that can't compete.

Brent from BC
There is only blame here.....human greed. Everybody wants a piece of the pie....capitalism has help porpogate this greed. I have been building my own pension for years. I am now laid off as well and need 10 - 15 years of employment to retire. So which one of you would like to top up my pension? Oh, thats right, I am on my own! Lets not blame the Gov't of today for yesterdays mistakes. This GM and CAW greed, no one elses...so why should we as tax payers fund this at any amount? I am disheartened by all the immature comments about the workers (uneducated, overpaided etc) The society we live in has made us very greedy....all of us!

reporting from ottawa
Who cares. As a future car buyer, I don't. Is the Tesla Model S available in Canada yet?

KC-Bby
GM's own president admitted that their vehicles were "luckluster" and the quality was poor. They have only themselves to blame. However, when one day their vehicles are dependable and sexy I will certainly buy them rather than buying Honda's. My loyalty has limits and so I won't buy a vehicle that is more/less a boring lemon. I'm simply not rich enough to blow money on a new car every 7 years. My old 1991 Honda still runs great and I will drive it until it dies - no sign of that impending death yet.

Sarah
Who cares there a bunch of over paid workers. Most of the heavy work is all done by machines anyways. You could have four workers replacing one worker and get more done

Gregory
RE: Gee Whiz

I find your comments amazing. I guess you must be one of those so called educated, and by your comments, think that anyone with less education is worthless. I guess the term is elitist.

I have a masters degree in computer science and have worked with both highly educated persons and people with only a high school diploma. I find that on the job experience far out ways education in regard to productivity and ability. In fact in my field I would say that 75% of the best programmers do not have a university degree.

Education does not give one common sense, high motivation, decision making, ability, or communication skills to name a few. In fact the highly educated sometimes are arrogant and do not work well in a team environment. In other words education alone does not make a good worker.

So before you step up on that pedestal, which in your mind, puts you above the common folk, "think"

These ordinary uneducated people (your words) built this country and indeed made it possible for you to get the education you are so impressed with.

Nate from Ontario
Kodiak,

Your #1 point that Toyota and Honda employees make more money than the Detroit 3 to keep the union out is a bit off. We make the same if not a little less. That fluctuates.

But you are absolutely right about the amount of retirees. I've said many times in these comments sections that the governments are idiots for comparing the wages of GM, Chrysler and Ford to Toyota and Honda. The legacy costs are pushing the wage to "$70" an hour. Toyota and Honda are at "$54" an hour because they have hardly any retirees.

As to all you "educated" people that are blaming the workers, once again, you're showing how ignorant you are. With the Oakville plant closing, how many non-autoworker jobs are going to be lost because of the spin off? Thousands.
Keep blaming the worker, that's what the media and government wants. Because, remember it's the men and women on the floor that make all the great decisions, like "build more Hummers", "let's have 7 brands that all have the same car". Give your heads a shake.

This is a sad day for the ENTIRE auto industry.

Slavko (Kitchener, Ontario)
North American auto pensions would have been fine if the autoworker's unions told the auto company to increase the deductions from autoworker's paychecks to cover the cost of today's autoworker's pension.

That's how the Ponzi pension scheme works. Today's autoworkers pay for today's retired autoworker's pension, if not then the legacy cost per vehicle sold becomes capitalistically ridiculous.

Governments and taxpayers have no responsibility to autoworkers receiving additional pension pay in coverage. It's the autoworker's union's responsibility to demand the auto company increase the deduction from the autoworker's paycheck to cover the pension of today's retired autoworker. That's what the auto union is for, to protect the autoworker's pension, which they failed to do.

From a non-autoworker's viewpoint:
It's the autoworker's unions from long ago that acted like gangs and forever created fear in society because of violent strikes and threats of stops to the greater economy that rational mathematical thinking didn't take place amongst unions representing the autoworkers. How else did the company come to this collapsing point? These threats from the union created a superior feeling among autoworkers and their unions that they can get what they want. Evidence of this is seen whenever the autoworker's union threatens elected politicians and extorts money from the taxpayer, which should have came from the autoworker's paychecks.

Governments spending money to keep jobs in the country is nice, such as creating the auto pact, but the autoworkers would have to allow auto companies to deduct appropriate amounts from autoworker's paychecks to pay for their fellow retired autoworker.

This type of elementary mathematics is very simple to understand. The auto unions failed.

Have I been as redundant as the unions have been when demanding taxpayers pay for auto company's pensions in addition to the Canadian Pension Plan?

Canada&Ontario have been nice.

GM Driver
When will people understand that it's not just what is one your paycheck that makes up your salary ..... some one has to pay for vacation time , personal days pensions ,,, sick time ,,, it is a proven fact that the average hourly wage includes more that just your rate per hour....

this is where most of the problems is in terms of salary perception

The rest of the world do not get this ", well in most cases . IF your salary on your pay check is 25 hr for a 37h week that 46250 for a 50 week year , that's an excellent salary when you add in the rest of benefits

There are many people to blame for this mess ... We are a nation of Truck lovers ,SUV lovers , GM was giving us what we wanted . The public is much to blame as the Management at GM ....

Car Guy in Ottawa
How soon we forget the Union Supported Strikes that brought SOME of this to a problem.

Rick
Please people that have no idea about what they are talking about stay the hell out of the topic.The bottom line folks is that everyone in the community,region and province loses .No more taxes
for any level of government,house prices will reflect values and of course no future employment for anyone regardless of skill level.The other thought is when all our manufacturing leaves I wonder how we will ever be able TO DEFEND OURSELVES Something the spineless politicians can mull over.Its not the worker thats at fault,Bankers,Politicians and ourselves.If people started buying from their North American grown autos maybe they would be opening up factories rather than closing them down The future looks bright,just not here so if your kid wants a good paying job remember what we all gave up.

Karin Pickering
It could be You: I can't believe the ongoing venom being spewed; 35 yrs of service should not be flushed away because the gov allowed GM special status.McGinty is ready to give $125Million for a hockey team; Human beings are being affected and their lives are not all luxury and bliss; they depend on their pensions.A little compassion wouldn't hurt; your job and pension could be next.

Dave in Alberta
This is to KODIAK. You’re missing the point. Because of you and your union and all of your complaining about RIGHTS, I WILL NEVER BUY ONE OF YOUR CARS. Think about this seriously. Stop WHINING and realize that people like me, THE CONSUMER have a choice of what we buy. How nice that as you stated "the average autoworker collects 2 retirement checks". ARE YOU SERIOUS??? And you are COMPLAINING???? Give me a break. I have walked in bigger shoes than you and your fellow employees as I was seriously injured while on duty as a police officer and cannot perform on the road police work anymore. I have had my life threatened and actual attempts made on my life on several occasions due to my profession. SO DON'T compare you and your fellow auto workers to the hazardous work I and others in my profession have to do. Your kind of work can’t even be compared to mine.

Dave
Enough is Enough. GM and all government levels can go stuff it. If people don't make good money they sure in hell won't be spending it.

NO WORK, NO SPENDING, NO TAXES for Government. It's a no win, win situation.

Good Luck GM Truck Employees

Deborah
Dave in Alberta,

I assume your getting a disablity pension from the force!! Let's hope one day they don't tell you that your on your own or that you don't deserve what is rightfully yours anymore!!.

WESTERNER STILL WORKING
Well to me it's Management First and Unions Second - for Greed! Have you not heard of your OWN RRSP - why does someone have to do it for you - are you not an EDUCATED ADULT?? Restructuring - GREAT - to many Dealerships in a small area - which tells me Management profited and the chips down the line got used! All around it was a joke - greed for all!! NOW YOU WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS AS THE GRAVY DAYS ARE GONE! Fighting & greed caused it all - look at the facts people - written paper always proves it in Court.

Brian
Absolutely incredible. Union workers - non-union workers -you are all in the same boat. And the greedy 2% are laughing their asses off while you devour each other. Divide and conquer - that's how the British Empire kept the 'peons'in their place for 200 years. Any job lost or factory closed down is one more than the country can afford. The financial sector has been getting all kinds of 'aid' - no strings attached. Sounds like a double standard to me.

Holly
Well, this is just the collapse of GM and Chrysler. You think that's bad? Wait till these huge bailout bubbles explode (see article by Gerald Celente). There are worse things ahead if governments keep bailing out these losing companies. Whatever happens, we're in for some tough times. Instead of letting a few businesses and banks go under, we're in danger of the whole system collapsing, due to the governments throwing money at every problem that comes along.

Sheldon
Well, down to the wire again, last-minute talks on a long weekend. Can these people do anything else to irk the general public?

Nate from Ontario
Everyone is all over the auto union for demanding more money, when the companies were profitable. What about teachers? How about all the times they have held us and our children hostage, threatening? Remember, they are unionized too and they are paid directly with taxpayers money. Police officers, fire fighters, city worker, and government workers are all paid by us. Don' mistake me as saying that a police officer or fire fighter do not deserve the wage they get, or a teacher for that matter, but everybody is showing such hate for a union and it's workers that were just trying to get their fair share from companies that were raking in billions of dollars in profits. The media doesn't report how the union agreed to wage freezes at their last contract, before the economic meltdown, because the Detroit 3 were losing money. Just stop with all the hate of your blue collar workers. You know, the men and women who live next door and keep the economy rolling.

rob
Ninety eight percent of GM CAW workers can retire in the next 7 years and the union did nothing to protect them!2003 the GM UAW were getting their pension fund topped up for 18 BILLION bucks.Buzz Hargrove didn't think a pension was that important.Just six months 7 months ago Buzz said "a pension reduction is so remote a possibility,it's not worth speculating on".Hargrove failed to protect the members.

KS - Toronto
Good Bye GM.

Kyle
I wish people would stop asking the government for bailouts. We live in a capitalist society, if you want government run, move to Cuba. Why should the tax payers bailout the pensions? Most people don't even have pensions or lost them at some point. We've lost a large chunk of our retirement funds too. Why should we help GM pensions when we have our own problems to deal with?

MRC in Ontario
...and to top it off, General Motors intends to begin shipping cars engineered & bulit in CHINA to North America in a few years. So much for all the sustainability talk.

What a crappy world we live in. Why did we do this to ourselves...again?!

tanya_to
For all that think the taxes and government should be supporting auto pensions I put this to you: Why should a single mom with 2 kids, making barely enough at 3 part time jobs and no savings / opportunity for pension, support your lazy butt with her tax dollars? Get a job a wal-mart or make an effort somewhere else.
Cry me river...

Enough already!
Just bury the damn corpse aready. GM and the rest of the big 3 are dead, their just too stubborn to admit it.
Between bad products, greedy unions & CEOs, and the changes in the world economy Nobody wants to do thing the old way any more.
Face it, you couldn't adapt and went the way of all dinosaurs.
RIP & absolutely NONE of my tax dollars to bail you out - business or pension wise!

Country Wally
What about the financial investors in this equation. You don't think that some of them are holding pension plan investments for other entities, like school teachers or civil service workers. Ya Obama, go ahead and screw the big "investors" and give whats left of GM and Chryco to the unions. Let them vote their own demise, and lets watch the greatest flight of capital that North America has ever seen. The messiah will bring in socialism. What a joke, to throw away the good that we have for the promise of pie in the sky OBAMA facism/socialism.
If these companies were allowed to fail months ago, we would already be ramping up the production lines with new money from investors who would have come in to fill the gap.
Buzz Hargrove, and the rest of the socialists can spend their sunset years relaxing in bankrupt Iceland, with all the other whining, moaning, socialists.

Aaron in Toronto
I want to know what I a taxpayer can do? I mean the gov't screw up, GM management screw up and they are too big to fail and hence the gov't have to use the tax $ to bail them out. Where is my bail out? I am paying thru my nose on tax already.

Jeff in Calgary
It's a sad situation. Really, I would love to drive a GM product like the 1980 Oldsmobile 98 my mom use to have. A beautiful car inside and out. But the fact is GM doesn't build a car I can afford to maintain. I just had a new transmission put in my 2002 chev truck (with only 195000 km). The manager of the transmission shop said he wants to write a thank you letter to GM for all the business. They built this defective transmission for 7 or 8 years without heat treating a reverse gear. This would have cost only a few dollars on the assembly line. It cost me $3000. So I went out a bought a Nissan. So Sorry GM.

Oshawa born
I was born and raised in Oshawa and most of my high school class mates got hired on right after high school (if they new someone) I took a different route and went to college for many years and racked up almost 80k in debt to make less then the GM guys. Now I can say I am glad I did. However you can't blame the GM workers entirely, they asked for higher wages and GM handed it over. If someone is giving you something most of us wouldn't turn it down. And most of us bought those larges trucks they made too! Don't forget Toyota starting getting sucked into the large SUV and Truck market too.

We need to remember that we don't always need bigger.

Matt C in Calgary
James.........

Actually, the unions absolutely ARE partly responsible for GM's current situation. The CAW used strike action, or the threat of strike action, as a means of legal coercion to get more and more from GM (i.e. wage increases, increased holiday time, health benefits, pension, etc...). The end result is a company which is uncompetetive in a global economy. A responsible union is one which is concerned with the well being of its members AND the common good (i.e. what is in the best interest of society). A militant union such as the CAW is concerned with getting as much as possible for its members.

If the CAW honestly believes that the current wages, pension and benefits are justified, then they should stick to their guns. Personally, I prefer Japanese imports to domestic.

Every CAW member (past and present) who voted for militant union heads is partly responsible for the current situation.

Dave - ON
The fall from a $77 per hour lifestyle with $10.00 per hour skills is gonna be a tough one for the CAW workers, most of whom never believed it could ever happen.

A in N.L.
I think it's sad that so many jobs are lost but don't try to blame it on consumers. I bought a domestic car three years ago and got garbage so never again will I make that mistake. Next time I spend 20,000 plus dollars( if i can afford to) I will spend it wisely and buy quality and that would be foreign.I worked hard and waited years to buy my first new car and ended up wasting my money on canadian made junk. Never again

Terry - Drayton, ON
The jobs are gone. There are as many reasons as there are posts but they are gone.

Are they lost jobs. Not really. The basic fact remains that auotmotive retail market needs a certian level of supply. Somebody will build cars to meet that supply requirement. If you have excess capacity for building vehicles that you can't sell, well your gone. It's that simple.

Another fact, that the automakers, the unions and government want you to know is equally basic. All cars are built all over the world from parts made all over the world. Parts are made in one country and sent to another for assembly and visa-versa. All automakers also make parts for other automakers.

So go ahead buy a car built in Ontario. So what. It may have been assembled in an Ontario plant but the parts have come from all over the world. Some GM trucks were built in Oshawa. Some Dodge trucks are built in Mexico, Ford's too. So there you go.

The biggest supplier of autoparts to any automaker is Asia and the Detroit three are no different than the Japanese automakers in this regard. There is even evidence that Detroit uses more Asian built parts than the Japanese guys. The truth is none of this should come as any suprise to anyone with the power to reason.

There are no guarantees in life. The government owes these workers nothing. Just like they owe nothing to any other worker in any other industry.

The last Detroit 3 truck I bought was in 2001 and lets just say it was the very last vehicle I will ever from either of them.

However what I would like to know is when will I ever stop paying for it.

Want me to buy a GM truck? Then build one worth buying.

CAWPROUD
To respond to B. Kelly...

Check your facts about unionized workshops. They are the most effective, efficient and produce the highest quality materials around. Just becuase I am UNION doesn't mean I am lazy. If you wanna draw stereotypes and paint all of us with one brush... what must you say of Ethnic groups ?? who's lazy.. who's a drunkard.. There are good people and bad people everywhere. UNIONS provided Health and safety rules and laws we all enjoy. Unions faught for the weekend off, and I think we all use that too. OH YA healthcare, social benefits, Unions sponsor United Way... And yes the Fiberals in Ontario are just as bad as the National PC's for being ANTI UNION. Plenty of long hard faught battles from UNION brothers and sisters in the past are things we ALL take for granted today. Thank a retiree for what they have done, just as if you would thank a VET for their sacrifice and how they have shaped today's society. Don't blame the workers.. very few posters have laid blame on the upper teir who direct the workforce and take home 98% of the fruits of those labours. And just to respond to the foreign car comments... if it wasn't for the AUTOPACT.. honda and the like wouldn't be employing or making squat here. so those jobs would be lost ASAP ! If you are against what the Manufacturing sector makes in Canada follow those companies down to Mexico and enjoy the peso's / day they make down there for shoddy work and less Health and Safety, No health care, etc etc.

Vern
Consumers aren't stupid, GM has put out junk for years and people have had enough of it. In this economy people are going to be even more picky about what they buy, which leaves no hope for GM to survive. Shut it down and lets move on, enough is enough!

Colin
Most of the anti worker and anti union comments I read here clearly come from people who either have no idea how business works, or are simply jealous. If you honestly believe that a person that puts the hubcaps on a car is responsible for that companies financial demise, you obviously do not understand how business works.

Businesses are run by managers. They decide which cars are designed, then built. If they decide to approve poor designs which most people don't want to purchase, how can you blame the assembler? Because the assembler in this case makes a decent wage, he is being blamed.

The fact is Toyota and Honda assembly workers are paid the same wage as CAW workers. The difference being the management of these companies has decided to produce products that the majority of people actually want to purchase. And the design of these products takes into account the quality that people like.

Because the Detroit 3 has been mismanaged for so long, and the associated governments have allowed them to draw from the employee’s pension plan, somehow the workers are allowed to suffer. Yes the employee’s pension plan, part of their compensation was their pension. It is theirs no different from their pay cheque. Commenting on the fact that they didn't contribute to it is simply an uneducated statement.

al from calgary
Just a Thought

I do not work for a car company so to all you posters out there who keep whining that the union workers are uneducated please remember that the next time the teachers or nurses unions go on strike or when doctors and lawyers want more money "They are educated and in your minds deserve everything they ask for so please no more whining" These so called educated CEO's got the car industry to where it is, they may have been better off promoting from within to someone who worked their way up, knows the industry and have some people skills.

Lloyd Huys
How many investors do you know that would invest in a company that just filed Chapter 11/Bankruptcy? How many investors do you know would invest in a company that has lost billions on a consistant basis? Thanks to Stevie Blunder Harper, the answer is US the Canadian Taxpayer!! Hey I wonder if he and the auto executives have been meeting in any hotel coffee shops lately????

Niagara George
As a retired -teacher, I am used to hearing people talk about high wages, long holidays and numberous perks. Three-quarters of what i heard over the years was either a complete fabrication or vry close to that.

I am hoping that comments about CAW wages and perks and auto labor costs, in general, are equally false.

BIGART - Winnipeg
Anyone in a Union job should take notice; "The Conservative Government of Canada Wants to Eliminate Unions" The auto manufactures are losing money, not because of the unions but rather the stupid executives that made terrible business decisions. The Canadian Government should assist the unions in taking over the companies and get rid of the over paid incompetent executives; of that won'happen because our Conservative Government is even more incompetent.

Erwin
Canadians will be more sympathetic when they see the contract. Everyone else pays 50% of the pension costs, CAW members paid 0

Disgusted in Calgary
tanya_to Says:
"For all that think the taxes and government should be supporting auto pensions I put this to you: Why should a single mom with 2 kids, making barely enough at 3 part time jobs and no savings / opportunity for pension, support your lazy butt with her tax dollars? Get a job a wal-mart or make an effort somewhere else.
Cry me river..."

This really says it all. Why on earth should the rest of us bleed to support jobs that even after such 'painful cuts' will still leave the auto workers amoungst the highest paid factory workers in the world. We need to give our heads a shake.

Barb
Everyone keeps mentioning the fact that CAW employees never paid into their pension fund. So what! Every single year employees receive a statement from GM stating what the employee's pension will be upon retirement. The statement came from the company...not the CAW. The company made the promise there was a pension plan in place! What role does the government play in allowing a company to make false promises? Its irrelevant whether or not they paid into that fund. If employees knew when they were hired there wasn't a pension plan then that would be different!!

Mike from NS
to "the taxpayer(s)" out there. i understand trying to keep these companies standing to save jobs but what happens if these companies cannot get back on track and keep accepting out money. I for one do not want to help prop up a company that should have went bankrupt or out of business months ago

gg
People fail to remember it was GM with the endorsement of the CAW that lobbied the NDP government to change the funding rules of the pensions. So the CAW isn't exactly innocent in this mess. I think the current workers will end up paying for it with the Ontario taxpayers but its not just the taxpayers.

edCP
Bye,bye Kenny :o))

Brian
This is a culmination of the last 40 years of both bad management and bad unions, neither of which thought it would ever end. I am not a big union suporter, but whilst the rest of you are "yahooing" the fall of the union and it's workers, I have one question...what makes you think it won't happen to you? My wife drives a CTS4, I have a 2500HD Silverado and they are great units. My 2004 Corvette is a supercar that will virtually run every car off the road. I have no complaints with GM products, the quality, sales and service have been wonderful

Wake Up Call
Yaaaawn... What you still talking about this! All you CAW supports rail about Big Oil and now that even they are in the dumps, you are still looking for handouts. In Alberta, I have not had a raise since 2002 and you pathetic losers were whaling about your raises over the same time. Perhaps if you had not been so greedy in the past you would have a job into the future.

stan m
Drop the $75/hr rhetoric.
Why, Chrysler dropped 19 dollars
are you saying they now only earn 4 dollars per hour??

Drop the gas guzzler idiocy..
Why, it is time to get over 20MPG

Drop the cars nobody
OK, Refuse to Pay for anymore

Drop the cheap plastic garble.
OK< Use Better plastics

Greg - Signs and Wonder
Who cares!

KJ in Kingston Ontario
I really must say it takes a lot of nerve for the GM workers to ask the tax payers for money when they have not contributed in a direct way to their own pension plan system.

As someone with retirement looming in only months and no pension income to look forward to beyond CPP. I find it practically obscene that there's any consideration of government funded auto worker pension rescues. They will still get CPP!!!!!!!!

No one living without a pension should be expected to contribute even a dime of tax money toward supporting the lifestyle of someone with a pension.

the real story of union greed
yes, count me in as one of those "bad, ignorant people", that blames the union and it's workers for a lot of these problems. I am a new teacher in Ontario and I see what a militant union has done to this sector. People I work with complain about the silliest things, that in the real business world they would be laughed at. And to all those GM workers that say" spend a week in the factory to see what we go through for our money". Well, I DID work for 4 summers in the Oshawa plant as a cleaner to get through University in Waterloo, and all I saw was drunks, dope, and people that would stand around when the line would freeze or always be on "bathroom break". I am not fabricating any of this! and the workers know of what I describe, but will deny it. I can count some hard working people on one hand for the entire time I was there. Managemant AND line worker....so whe the union bosses say that the truck plant was the most productive...I can't imagine what the others were like. If any posters are in doubt of what I am saying, I describe in detail the entire plant inside to prove that I worked there. thank you.

peggy
I'm with you, James. Any time there is a problem, it's the unions that are expected to fix it, not management. I think this is wrong, since it's bad management decisions made over several years that has caused the present situation at GM.

Lorne
Both parties are equally responsible for this mess.
Greed was a big factor as well.
Pensions - when you as an individual did not contribute any monies to a pension plan, how can you be entitled to a pension?
You allowed the company to pay into the pension fund on your behalf - they blew all the monies - but the fact was it was not your money they blew. Your contribution was nil - this was all part of the lucrative contract you signed with the company.
Greed has led to the pension demise and government should not have to guarantee anything.

Gail (Hamilton)
The pension problem started with the Ontario NDP government and was supported by the opposition Libs and Cons at the time. The federal government had nothing to do with it. In fact, unions are in the Charter and right to work is not.

I've never worked in a job where I relied on a union because in the end noone's job is forever.

The environmentalists kept pushing and still do and they too share the blame for the misfortune of the big 3. Also, the big 3 would have been able to retool just once, but they kept getting mixed messages from the US government on fuel efficient cars. This whole fiasco has left the workers with little or no room to manouvre. The provincial Liberal government will probably consider using our tax dollars for the workers' pension. After all, that's the "progressive" strategy.

Karma Calling
@ CAW PROUD "Bash the ones making 30 / hr"

$30 / hour plus benefits is too much to put together a car on an assembly line. Especially when there are people who would be happy to do it for half that without benefits - just happy to have a job in the first place. When GM is liquidated the CAW workers are in for a rude awakening.

Temp Agent: So what experience do you have?

Former union worker: Uh - I punched rivets in a car. Sometimes they would let me put the seat in too.

Temp agent: Education?

Former union worker: uh high school. My daddy got me a job in the union so why bother gettin' educated when I would make more than most university graduates to start.

Temp agent: I see. Well I can get you in as a greeter at Wal-Mart - does $6/hour sound right to you? With some training you could probably work at McDonalds too.

Anne
So in this case stakeholders means workers?

What about Execs. Workers can't carry the load for the entire company, yes they are well paid, but they are'nt the only ones.

Paul
Time for GM to file Chapter 11, relinquish debts, and hopefully the CAW and this bafoon they have.

Do you really think Hargrove didn't see this coming before her retired.

Union heads in Europe require a degree in Econimics, not the bullying they have done in America to make more than Nurses do!

Linda In The Valley
Gunshot in Thunder Bay, truer words were never written.

Anti Union?
I am not anti worker, but I am anti union. Wanna know why?
I was medically released fromt he Canadian Forces 3 years ago, due to wounds. I applied for a public service job that I was qualified for and although I had legal priority, the right skills, etc - the UNION nixed my job. I couldn't get a straight answer in public but in private I found out that I was on a nationwide blacklist as a strikebreaker. (!?!)

Turns out that in 1981, when the Kingston prison guards were on strike and the prisoners rioted, the civil polcie lost control of the prison. The army was called on. We restored order and turned control back over to the civil police. Seems simple enough, doesn't it. We did our duty under the law. No one knew that someonce gave the guards union all our names who them put them out to all the unions as strike breakers. Now we are all on nationwide blacklists and can never take a job in a workplace where there is a union.
Doesn't seem fair does it.
So, while I am not anti-worker, I am most certainly anti-union.
This kind of crap needs to be cleaned up and the unions made to become what they are supposed to be rather than political entities that are above the law; able to extort, threaten, and run rough-shod over everyone else.
Oh yes, i am now a medium sized business partner and every employee (23) signs a legal contract that this will remain a non-union workplace. We offer a good wage, health & dental benefits, a pension plan and even daycare. Who the hell needs a union?!
Tom Davis

Johan, Newmarket
The failure of any business is tragic, and we all feel for these workers. However, trade union demands have pushed American automakers' products out of reach with too high prices, not to mention the price/quality ratio that does not compare well with foreign autos. I drive my second Chrysler now and have had several GM cars, but this will be my last for that very reason. Consumers also look after their pennies. Loyalty must be earned.
I hope good sense will dominate talks between union and management. May good business principles lead discussions and enable these automakers to make a strong comeback.

Remarkable
Everybody who has a stake in this are to blame.

GM and the Union are to blame, the shareholders can share some of the blame and I'm sure there are some more fingers that can be pointed here.

The bottom line is, they need to cut costs at every level and deep cuts at that.

If you really want to survive, you'll do whatever it has to take and I'm hoping that both sides have the guts to do it.

RVH
Yes managers decide what to build and not build, but its the workers who strike and picket every 4 years whining and complaining about wanting more money, more pesion more benefits more...turning away anyone who drove a non GM or Ford vehicle etc.. away shouting and acting immature etc. You too led to your own demise by your selfish acts as well as management. Good Bye

James
To GM - Punt the Union.
To CAW Members - add up what you spent in union dues over your years - probably would have made a nice pension in your own bank account.
Buzz fooled you all - look at his pension from the CAW - you paid for it!

Wayne a business owner...
Hey this is just GREED from the top to the bottom. I wish the government would walk away from GM and Chrysler and let the chips fall where they may. How many times have we seen businesses fall and then a new business emerges to take it's place. Chrysler & GM have made terrible cars for decades and management is to blame for that. But the unions are to blame for the high costs also. If you look at history, inflation has gone up and the auto industry in North America is the only industry that prices have increased with inflation. And the quality has gone down.

Autoworker's Wife (Not GM)
said to take a scan of the paycheck. It's not the paycheck that is so much out of line it is all the benfits. The total package is over $70 per hour - wages and benefits. And these are unskilled workers. In the area I'm in, Nothern Ontario, most people are scrambling to make $20.00 wages and benefits ( $12.50 hourly wage ) and most are just as qualified to take a union persons job over at any time.

The blame is from top to bottom and has been fueled by greed for decades.

Be Responsible For Yourself!
I am not sitting in a comfy office reading articles on the web, getting paid (Frank Van Roessel). I don't eat with a silver spoon in my mouth (Caw Proud) and I was just wondering (Autoworker's Wife)if YOUR benefit package includes the costs of your toilet paper used each day? What's that about??

My family of 4 live on a single income, we have never had the luxury of receiving an income like that of a GM employee! My husband went to college so he could earn a decent living.... but can't even make 1/2 of the GM wage with an education!

I Personally know GM workers and they have always complained about their pay being low. They are striking all the time ... demanding more... never satisfied. Sure the top guys are to blame as well for this situation, but enough IS enough! I guess GM expenses are exceeding the income. It had to happen! Thank the CAW.

All the workers who have lived so comfy on their outrageous rates of pay will now have to join us down here in the lower tax bracket. Yes, I agree it is awful to lose a job, but we have all been there. We have all struggled. I guess it will just be a little more difficult for those who have grown accustomed to top wages. GM doesn't owe anyone, you were paid well to do your job! You all should have been responsible for your own future. Have you never been told to be "diversified" in your investing/ savings? I know many seniors who struggle to get by. Do you feel sorry for them???

Too comfy for too long. Thank your union!

moe
i have a hard time reading all the anti union and anti gm comments. most people don't realize what the auto manufacturing does for ontario. once it's gone it won't be back, with that tax base gone the whole budget for the province is not sustainable.

Jay
Well if GM and CAW cannot work it out and it fails the company goes under i feel sorry for the people but i do not want the government bailing out this 7 billion dollar pension fund. All or most of that money is put in by GM so if GM does not have it anymore my thier union etc... fault then too bad We cannnot bankrupt the country.

kinger in Niagara
how does reducing pay/bennifits to auto workers fix a problem that never started with those workers,do you really think the Price of a car will come down,bottom line will always be Profit

mike holdsworth
They say that GM is failing and the cause is the workers, and the solution is to open our contract and take cuts...well the last I saw we are in a recession and the gov`t is to blame, so lets open up their contracts and make them take cuts. Last time I looked they work for me, We put them their and we can take them out...No more perks or raises or 6 yrs and a pension for life..work 30 yrs like the rest of us and be accountable or we`ll open up your contract again...See how you like it.

SGF
Tough bargaining?? One key reason why is because the union cannot threaten/resort this time to striking. As for pension benefits, everyone's taxes pay for CPP and OAS, not for privileged CAW retirees.

Bad buisness: Sell high, pay high, build cheap.
I have family that works with GM. One of them is a "releif worker"

He sits in the break room most of the day selling canteen items for his own profit all day, and releaving workers once in a while that need to use the washroom.

That ammount of work is rewarded with wages and benifits in value well into the six figures. Perhaps his share of work in the company is worth over 100,000 a year.

George Henderson
We have 100 educated trained adults in our city of 10,000 that would be willing to work for the $20 per hour (wages & benifits ) that the union has agreed to cut. That would be a savings of $50 per hour or over $10 million per year ($50 x 100 x 40hr week x 52 weeks). That is just one city of many in Canada.

Union workers make too much...

Trevor London,Ontario
The caw should do what the Tamils are doing and march on the 401 until the Ontario government tops up there pension. In fact they should alternate days.

toonfan
Toughest negotiations ever, didn't the CAW say that about dealing with Chrysler?

As they say, you make your own bed now sleep in it.

Less dealership means even higher prices for the same junk they build, can't see that being a very good plan.

A Kitchener
Why can't the management staff take staff cuts not assembly line workers instead you never hear about management staff or the exec's taking pay cuts

Hamish
Too much Bashing
Too much Blaming

Reality is that the companies are in serious trouble, regardless of what and assuming that the union and corporate can agree on something. This should not be how much can be cut, or saved, but how many jobs can be
I am not Pro Union, but, am not anti either
Many jobs rely on the ongoing income from them.
Blaming the government?
The Unions?
Well, if you want to vent!
This is a recession, everyone has to pull back
Reality
What a concept

Greg M
Only give these companies money if there is a solid payback plan with a profit for the taxpayer. Otherwise forget it. It is barely worth it to begin with as it only is to benefit southern Ontario anyway.

Pete, Burlington.
To all the pro unionist who complain about the rest of us for questioning the sanity of trying to save these companies I offer the following:

The moment that your union started demanding government intervention and subsidies for your pensions, we all were given the right to an opinion as it is our money they want to spend.

Judging from all the opinion polls and blogs out there, it seems pretty clear that there is little sympathy for these companies because most people agree that a combination of bad labour agreements, strong arm union tactics, bad management and poor product selection have simply destroyed what were once very good companies. There is little point in pumping billions of taxpayer dollars in to try and save something like this and you only need to look at the now defunct British car industry to see what happens.

In the 70's and 80's, the UK labour government supported the unions demands to save the car companies who were losing ground to overseas competitors. the unions claimed it was bad management, but continued to be unproductive and the management claimed they needed time to retool and bring better poroducts to market. The governement told the taxpayers that the industry was too important to die and pumped in hundreds of millions to save them. The end result was simply a few more years of strikes, bad products and boring news reports followed by years of debt that the taxpayers endured because they never got one penny back out of those companies.

Face the facts, these companies need to go under and restructure and we should not put one penny of taxpayers money into them.

kodiak
This is to Dave in Alberta.
You missed what I said about collecting 2 pention checks.
The average auto worker collects 2 pention checks after retiring before passing away. Yes some live to a ripe old age but alot I see right now passing away. In our plant last 6 passed all under the age of 50.
If I was collect 2 pention checks a month I would have no right to be complaining at all and you would have every right in the world to be jumping on me.
I put my time in and we are supposted to get a pention. We can not even put in more of our money because the goverment says the company pention is worth this much and then we can top it off.
The Goverment changed the rules and allowed the Company to under fund our pention and now the goverment wants us to take a huge cut to be able to keep our jobs. So to keep our jobs we must give up our future. Yes your right that is fair. Hope you understand sarcaism

Kelly O from Med Hat
I for one do know what the big 3 have done for our country and do for our country, from their contributions to charity to helping win the Second World War. Maybe most people out there don't realize it, but you wouldn't have the freedom to say what you want to say if it wasn't for the big 3. They stopped producing cars and started building military hardware so that we can be free. For that I salute you all. I do not want to see any of these companies fold. GM and Chrysler have, however been mismanaged for many years and now its biting them in the butt. And for all of you out there that think that Toyota and Honda are so much better than the big 3 products you are oh so WRONG. Toyota is having more quality issues right now than any other manufacturer. Have any of you even tried the new Ford Fusion? This is one of the better cars ever built and great gas mileage. They ride way nicer than any of their Jap counterparts. I think its time for the consumers to quit falling for their BS and go buy a real car!!!

Ron in Brighton
People need to realize that pension contibutions wrer a taxable benifit that GM workers paid income tax on every year. They also had their RRSP contribution level reduced by the amount of the pension plan contribution not allowing them to invest in their own future. If the money they paid taxes on was not really put away for their retirement and the governments of the day knew that shouldn't the gonernment bear some responibility

Joeyann
To Paul from Grafton....
You said it best!

To all my family and friends at the truck plant in Oshawa, The East Coast fishermen have had the rug pulled out from under them too. People really don't understand how much this is going to impact every business in and around the greater Toronto area.
We are thinking and hoping for the best for you all.
Joeyann, Halifax NS

Proud to Drive GM!
Congratulations to Phil in Ajax! Well said! I think the government should stand up and take responsibiltiy. I am one without a pension, I have been self employed for 35 years and am envious of the pensions of the Big 3, but to take it from seniors now it outrageous! They need their pensions or social assistance....either way, I and the rest of Canadian taxpayers will end up paying the bill! The Auditor General should be reviewing the top 10% of salaried management and the top 10% of the union 'brass' to see where all the 'pension' monies went too!

Ron in Brighton
To those who continue to believe the failure of Ontario's Big 3 won't effect them and continue to buy cars built offshore I hope the business, company or government you work for does the majority of it's business in Korea, China or Japan. More than ever " MADE IN NORTH AMERICA" matters

Yes, there is injustice in the workplace.
Workers organized into labor unions do not cause that injustice in the workplace. They are a response to it.

Not everyone who wants to work at an auto plant for a good wage can get such a job. That's not the fault of unions.

Management incompetence is not the fault of unions.

Government and corporate interests want to impoverish the working class. That's not the fault of unions.

You got problems in your workplace? You need a union.

Union bashing doesn't help any worker, even those workers who do not belong to unions.

Brett from Windsor
So, will government officials ever be asked to take a pay cut?? Will their pensions ever be in jeopardy?? Look at our economy, look at our unemployment, and look at our future. Just serve a couple of years helping this country out and be set with a pension! So... who helps fund that pension???? Guess who!

Frank Van Roessel Jr. 28 years senority. GM Oshawa
Be Responsible For Yourself! didn't have the guts to use her own name. As far as your toilet paper comment, if you can name me one place of employment that requires the workers to bring their own TP I'll will gladly donate a case. After all I make $70 and I am on strike all the time so I have the time.